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CodeIgniter vs Django: What are the differences?

Key Differences between CodeIgniter and Django

CodeIgniter and Django are two popular web development frameworks used for building web applications. While they share some similarities, they also have several key differences:

  1. Language: CodeIgniter is written in PHP, a server-side scripting language known for its simplicity and ease of use. Django, on the other hand, is written in Python, a powerful and versatile programming language.

  2. Architecture: CodeIgniter follows the Model-View-Controller (MVC) architectural pattern, which separates the application logic into three components: models, views, and controllers. Django, on the other hand, follows the Model-View-Template (MVT) architectural pattern, which is similar to MVC but with a slight variation in terminology.

  3. Database Support: CodeIgniter provides support for a wide range of databases, including MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle, and SQLite. Django, on the other hand, is primarily designed for use with the Django ORM (Object-Relational Mapping) framework, which supports multiple databases but is optimized for use with PostgreSQL.

  4. Ease of Learning: CodeIgniter is known for its simplicity and ease of use, making it a good choice for beginners or developers who are new to web development. Django, on the other hand, has a steeper learning curve due to its more advanced features and complex architecture, but offers more flexibility and scalability in the long run.

  5. Community and Ecosystem: CodeIgniter has a large and active community of developers, with a wide range of plugins, libraries, and extensions available for additional functionality. Django, on the other hand, has a smaller but highly dedicated community, with a focus on security, robustness, and best practices.

  6. Built-in Admin Interface: Django provides a built-in administration interface that allows developers to easily manage and control the application's data models. CodeIgniter, on the other hand, does not provide a built-in admin interface, although there are third-party plugins available for this purpose.

In summary, CodeIgniter and Django differ in their programming languages, architectural patterns, database support, ease of learning, community, and built-in admin interface. Choosing between them depends on the specific requirements of the project and the developer's experience and preferences.

Advice on CodeIgniter and Django
Needs advice
on
DjangoDjangoGolangGolang
and
SpringSpring

So currently I have experience in Node.js, but just to expand my stack knowledge and for getting backend developer roles, I thought of learning another backend-related language/framework. I have heard about Django, Golang, and Spring. I am mostly trying for backend API roles, and far as I've heard, Django REST framework can be a pain to work with. I've heard there are issues with Golang for package management (like how recently the Gorilla web toolkit is archived) and as for Spring, it's a vast ecosystem to learn so not sure if it's worth investing in. I would like to know which tool/framework to learn, which can help me get high-paying jobs and has a lot of scopes, and also which is great for making REST APIs. Any other tool that can do the job better than these three is also welcome!

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Replies (1)
Recommends
on
FastAPIFastAPI

Try thats, is really lightweight and little bit similar like node, before you jump on djanggo stuff, hopefully it's helpful https://fastapi.tiangolo.com/

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Needs advice
on
DjangoDjangoPHPPHP
and
RailsRails

I'm really interested in building minimalistic web products with extra stuff like Stripe, MongoDB, solidity, WebAssembly and three.js.

Want to choose my backend lang but am unable to choose, my requirement is:

  • fast dev
  • minimal
  • easy to learn
  • good for saas
  • huge community
  • scalable
  • fast and interactive
  • good job market (not important)
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Replies (1)
Christian Maersk
CEO/Full-stack developer at QUARY Design ApS · | 6 upvotes · 39.7K views

If you want an ’easy-to-learn’ and ‘fast dev’ environment I would go with React.js, Node.js, and Firebase. This is probably one of the easiest tech stacks to develop and offers great scalability without creating a complicated database structure. Furthermore, it’s almost hard to develop a react application that isn’t lightning fast.

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Michael Feldhake
Developer at Fleet-Nomics · | 7 upvotes · 38.2K views
Needs advice
on
BubbleBubbleCakePHPCakePHP
and
CodeIgniterCodeIgniter

Hi all, I need to create a simple IoT interface application that connects the end device API with a GeoTab API. I am considering using Bubble due to its simple interface and configuration tools, but I fear it's too simple. We will want to add features and new devices as we grow - I was thinking of using CodeIgniter or CakePHP on a hosted site for the application. Must support JCOM encoding between the two APIs and there is no need for a separate interface as GeoTab already has one; we are just connecting and pushing data. Thoughts?

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Replies (1)
Jordan Lis
Co-Founder at Partunity · | 1 upvotes · 309 views
Recommends

You should check out Partunity.com if you want to get plugged in with innovative tech startup ideas!

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Needs advice
on
DjangoDjango
and
SpringSpring

Should I continue learning Django or take this Spring opportunity? I have been coding in python for about 2 years. I am currently learning Django and I am enjoying it. I also have some knowledge of data science libraries (Pandas, NumPy, scikit-learn, PyTorch). I am currently enhancing my web development and software engineering skills and may shift later into data science since I came from a medical background. The issue is that I am offered now a very trustworthy 9 months program teaching Java/Spring. The graduates of this program work directly in well know tech companies. Although I have been planning to continue with my Python, the other opportunity makes me hesitant since it will put me to work in a specific roadmap with deadlines and mentors. I also found on glassdoor that Spring jobs are way more than Django. Should I apply for this program or continue my journey?

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Replies (2)
Recommends
on
DjangoDjango

I would recommend you change and get the easy path, but there's no easy path. When you are working in something like development you have to learn every day, stick with a specific niche, learn from others to apply to yours, and improve to be a specialist. If Spring and Java are technologies you're not enjoying, why are you going to waste your time with them? If you check the market, the higher salaries are in the specialization. For example, I was sticking with Erlang and Elixir in high volume, high availability, and concurrent systems. Don't check the number of works about Python, Java, or whatever else, you only need one job, and you have no idea about the quality of these. Most of the demanding jobs for Java, Python, and PHP are usually not covered because they request a lot and pay too less. Believe me, there are not a lot of Erlang and Elixir jobs and I always found one. And finally, don't expect too much from big companies, they are all glamorous from the outside, but they are usually a deception when you start working for them.

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Axel Dürkop
at Hamburg University of Technology · | 5 upvotes · 49.2K views
Recommends
on
DjangoDjangoFlaskFlask

Hi Mohamed, I love Django for its "batteries included" philosophy, meaning that you get the backend for free and a lot of stuff for database abstraction. But often you just need some kind of webserver backend logic and Django is oversized for that purpose. In that case I go with Flask which has a modular approach so that you need to gather the parts yourself that you need. If you come from a Python background I think there is a lot to explore with Python for the web and it very well into the data science landscape.

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Quade Claxton
Needs advice
on
DjangoDjango
and
SymfonySymfony

Hi everyone! I'm starting a personal project that I've been postponing for a little while and I need a bit of advice. I thought that it will be a bit of a challenge but I figure the best way to learn is by doing!

The plan is to build an app with loads of automation build in for reporting which would make it very easy to perform tasks, The plan is to build something similar to an HR app using microservice architecture, separating services e.g. employee data, payroll (including calculations based on easily entered info like tax %), employee services (vacation, sick day allowance booking and tabulation) and automated reporting on a pre-defined schedule (bi-weekly, monthly).

I am considering Django (as I currently know a bit of Python) and Symfony (as a friend who is a developer recommended it) but I am well aware there are other (and probably better) tools out there for the job (like maybe ExpressJS/Node.js for the backend and React/Vue.js for the front).

Background:

I have got knowledge as a DevOps, Site Reliability and Cloud engineer so once the app is built I'm very comfortable taking it to deployment.

Thank you all for your help and responses.

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Replies (1)
Ibrahim Gunduz
Software Developer at PayU · | 2 upvotes · 49.5K views
Recommends

Hi. I guess it all depends on what your goal is. If you wanna make fast prototyping Django or ExpressJNodeJS might be really good candidates. You can write your services quickly and easily by using anyone of them. Maybe we can also put Laravel in the same category.

Symfony is also another application framework that comes with many reusable components. It provides great flexibility with the configuration and dependency management solutions. So that you can inject or override anything, anytime without doing something hack-ish. You don't have to depend on any components that come with the framework and, replace them with whatever you prefer unless encounter any integration issues. I can say that Laravel also provides most of the Symfony futures as it uses its components under the hood. However, my personal experience with Laravel was not so good because it made me feel like I use a modernized version of Codeigniter. But anyway. :) So if I have to choose one of them, I would choose Symfony.

From the backend perspective, all of those have some pros and cons. For example, If strict type declaration is important for you and you don't like code magics like monkey patching etc., maybe Python and NodeJS might not be good candidates and maybe you could choose Symfony/php. However, in this case, you'll be missed out on the most powerful future of NodeJS which is non-blocking io. if you plan to do IO-intensive works, I think it would be a big loss.

So, maybe I can recommend you to have a look at typescript + NestJS also. https://nestjs.com/ The futures that NestJS provides might be a good balance between the strengths of Symfony and NodeJS.

As I'm backend dev., I haven't work too many frontend projects but from my personal experience, I loved ReactJS more than Vue although Vue was simpler. Maybe a front-end developer can give us more helpful details about those.

Hope it helps.

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Needs advice
on
DjangoDjangoLaravelLaravel
and
RailsRails

I am wondering which language would you guys suggest learning if productivity & "future-proofing" is the focus?

I have now 2 years of experience with React Native & Firebase and 3 years of experience with Next.js and ExpressJS. As I like the idea of separating backend & frontend I think as a solo developer the MVC approach will get you way further and overall I started second guessing the whole js ecosystem and its quality.

What I am currently considering the most is Django, even if I am giving up major productivity I think the opportunities Python offers with AI/ML & scrapping are way superior then Rails. I would like to know how much productivity would get lost by deciding on Django.

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Replies (1)
Recommends
on
DjangoDjangoPythonPython

Python is simple to read. Easy to use and import libraries. It is widely used in many different application domains. It is very easy to learn compared to other languages.

Considering your background is in front end technology; why not try some other language that can help you become more well rounded? Besides, there are always more and more python jobs.

Django is very easy to learn. If you use Django, I recommend the Django-Rest-Framework. This will save you a lot of time. But you need to understand some Python first. I think Python is as simple as: interpreted, dynamically typed language where you use lists and dictionaries a lot.

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Needs advice
on
DjangoDjangoFirebaseFirebase
and
LaravelLaravel

I need advice. Am currently building a real estate marketplace mobile app using Flutter for frontend. I am not sure which backend solution to use, and thinking of using Firebase, Django or Laravel for backend and MongoDB/MariaDB for the database. I want to build an API backend and then use RESTful API calls for the frontend.

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Replies (1)
Recommends

I think you should first choose either a database or server side programming language then you can streamline your other choices based on that, but I think if you are building a big project then going with django + firebase / mongodb would be a good choice else choose laravel + firebase.

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Needs advice
on
DjangoDjangoLaravelLaravel
and
SpringSpring

Hi all. I want to rewrite my system. I was a complete newbie 4 years ago and have developed a comprehensive business / finance web application that has been running successfully for 3 years (I am a business person and not a developer primarily although it seems I have become a developer). Front-end is written in native PHP (no framework) and jQuery with backend and where many processes run in MySQL. Hosted on Linux and also sends emails with attachments etc. The system logic is great and the business has grown and the system is creaking and needs to be modernised. I feel I would stick with MySql as DB and update / use Django / Spring or Laravel (because its php which I understand). To me, PHP feels old fashioned. I don't mind learning new things and also I want to set the system up that it can be easily migrated to Android/iOS app with SQLite. I would probably employ an experienced developer while also doing some myself. Please provide advice -- from my research it seems Spring/Java is the way to go ... not sure. Thanks

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Replies (4)
Recommends
on
LaravelLaravelVue.jsVue.js

PhP might be old fashionned but Laravel is really great. I've tried nodeJs backend with express, python with flask and a little bit of serverless, and quite frankly, laravel was by far the best in my opinion. It has a lot of official packages that speeds up development (from authentification to serverless deployement), it also uses Eloquent ORM that support Mysql databases. Finally it works great with VueJs for the front end development.

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Harry Jin

I recommend ExpressJS or NestJS as BackEnd and React as Front-End and PostgreSQL as the database. The reason is as follows. First of all, since it is a financial system, various services will exist, and each service must be well connected and combined with each other. The organic combination of small services that work very well is the foundation of a great system. For this, it is best to use Node.js based, and I think ExpressJS or NestJS is the best choice. We recommend choosing React or Vue as the FrontEnd. PostgreSQL is currently the best performing database. These three combinations have many examples, and their superiority has been confirmed by my implementation in many projects already. If you are interested in my advice and have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

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Jayson Pamittan
Software Engineer - Level III at Arch Global Services · | 4 upvotes · 102.7K views
Recommends
on
LaravelLaravel

On my end for me it's better to choose Laravel. It has very good documentation and easy to code. The framework supports MVC and you can create either monolithic or API only. The community is also big. If you combined a Domain Driven Development (DDD) and Test Driven Development (TDD) on Laravel then it will be a superb.

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Since you are using PHP more natural is Python - it can handle high traffic - Python is very effective in coding. Python is superset of Java and C++ - True Object Oriented and have very clear syntax (Spring is hard to learn and debug - you can be confused many times). It is human readable you can code 2-4 times faster with small speed sacrifice. Jinja2 is more faster/flexible Django - whatever Django is better with ORM. Flask is just proposal - many other options of web servers.

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Aleyna ARSLAN
Entrepreneur at Oblong Digital Marketing & Ads · | 5 upvotes · 94.4K views
Needs advice
on
DjangoDjango
and
.NET.NET
in

Hi everyone, I have a new venture project, we do frontend development mainly with Tailwind CSS, JavaScript, CSS, HTML, and React. This project will run on a cloud platform and it will be a web platform with data analysis. At Backend, we can't decide which technology to continue with. We will necessarily use Python for data analysis and algorithms, but should the backend be written with Django or C# .NET, can I get your suggestions within the cloud platform? Price performance is our priority.

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Replies (2)
Miles Fawcett
Recommends
on
DjangoDjango

If you are already committed to Python for the data analysis then it would make sense to use Django for the framework and stick with Python throughout. In general the fewer technologies you use (unless there is real justification) will improve process and long term costs.

All things being equal the fact you would not have less (likely no) licensing costs with a Python based solution will overall reduce your long term costs.

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Recommends
on
DjangoDjango

If you will be doing data analysis and complex algorithms Django is best suited for this because of it' maturity and the huge communities providing lots of Python libraries for data analysis and more.

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Needs advice
on
DjangoDjangoRailsRails
and
SpringSpring
in

Hi everyone! I'm starting a personal project that I've been postponing for a little while and I'm starting with the backend first.

  • It's an app that needs to query open APIs (It could go up to a hundred APIs) and do filtering and other manipulations onto the data and then store it in my own database. So basically, the end result medium/long term is a lot of data!

  • Besides filtering/storing data from other APIs, the API will interact with my client application. I should note that the client app attempts to give real-time information.

Question: I would want to launch the API within 6 months as I'm also planning to make it available for other devs through platforms like RapidAPI. With all being said, my question is twofold:

  1. Which backend framework would allow me to do these operations with the best response time possible?

  2. Which framework would be the easiest to deal with deployment on AWS?

Background:

I have a background in Spring since I'm using it at work, I have none in Rails and Django but I don't mind trying something new as long as the learning curve isn't crazy. I know python but not Ruby. Beginner on AWS and choose that one after some research.

Thank you very much, sorry it was a bit long. Cheers

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Replies (1)
Jorge Velasco
Full Stack Developer at Fintual · | 8 upvotes · 96K views

The most relevant part is the central architecture more than the specific backend. For me, it makes sense to go for an event-driven solution. In this case, an event is emitted on every new data, and one or more listeners react to it. In AWS, you can easily get this by storing your data in DynamoDB, which is pretty fast, and have as many lambdas working on the received data (here you can find more details). This way, you keep your worker(s) busy fetching data while others consolidate it. I wouldn't get too crazy on the lambdas, and I'd start with one as there will be only one client by your description. My only concern is how similar the APIs you're consuming are. Depending on that, it may be easier to have different lambdas by target API. My only note on the backend language is that if you want low latency, I'd discard Python and Ruby and choose Go (I know that is not in the list, but given that you're open to learning a new language, you could give it a try). It is easy to learn, has excellent performance, and is the only Lamdba runtime with an X (1.X) in the supported language, making it a great choice.

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Decisions about CodeIgniter and Django
SamuelBonilla
Senior Developer at Graphul · | 20 upvotes · 33.1K views

Graphul is an Express inspired web framework using a powerful extractor system. Designed to improve, speed, and scale your microservices with a friendly syntax, Graphul is built with Rust. that means Graphul gets memory safety, reliability, concurrency, and performance for free. helping to save money on infrastructure.

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Mark Esser
Director People & Culture at i22 Digitalagentur GmbH · | 8 upvotes · 113.7K views

A developer and project manager from our team X says the following about our use of Rails at i22:

"We use Rails to build stable and flexible backend systems. Rails is extremely good for managing data structures and quickly setting up new systems. It is the perfect base for most use cases."

I asked the same Team X member why the team prefers to work with Ruby on Rails, rather than Python and Django:

"Because Python is a scripting language and from my point of view not suitable for building stable web services. Python is for me rather good for scripts and fast small tools. Not for stable business applications. And if I want it fast I prefer Go."

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Tyrell Perera
Director - Software & Systems Engineering at Telstra · | 5 upvotes · 91.1K views
Migrated
from
DjangoDjango
to
Spring BootSpring Boot

I inherited a large Python Django application as part of a corporate re-structure. After careful analysis, working with the new team, we decided to break the monolith into a microservices architecture. While doing so, we managed to port some of those microservices into Spring boot. Better performance and widely available expertise within my current team made me make this decision.

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We’re a new startup so we need to be able to deliver quick changes as we find our product market fit. We’ve also got to ensure that we’re moving money safely, and keeping perfect records. The technologies we’ve chosen mix mature but well maintained frameworks like Django, with modern web-first and api-first front ends like GraphQL, NextJS, and Chakra. We use a little Golang sparingly in our backend to ensure that when we interact with financial services, we do so with statically compiled, strongly typed, and strictly limited and reviewed code.

You can read all about it in our linked blog post.

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This website was originally written in Yii as PHP was my main language back then. After learning Django, I realized just how quickly you could build a web app with less lines. So I migrated my website to Django in a week or two and managed to cut down the lines of code by half. Some of the lines saving came from the models, the views, and the expressiveness of Python. Django requires like config for the models and they provide many generic views that abstracts away common patterns.

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I am planning to develop project management system SAAS based. Can any one help me with selection of platforms from Django or Laravel and for database MongoDB or Firebase/Firestore or MySql? On front end I am going to use Quasar Framework (VueJS). Note : project will be Webapp, Mobile app and desktop app.

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Shiqi Lin
Software Developer at BigClarity · | 3 upvotes · 223.6K views

We will use Django to set up our backend and Django REST Framework (DRF) for our API creation. The easiness of performing development tasks (eg. user authentication, URL routing, and schema migration) attracts our attention. Also, Django with PostgreSQL provides many benefits: 1. Some data types in Django will only work with PostgreSQL; 2. Django offers django.contrib.postgres to operate on PostgreSQL; 3. Django supports many features of PostgreSQL. Moreover, Django is compatible with Redis.

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Chose
RailsRails
over
DjangoDjango

I have used both the tools . Both of them are super awesome , very reliable and their learning curve is also super easy. But, the reason I choose Ruby on Rails over Django is the fact that the dependency injection is super easy in Rails than Django. What I mean is the fact that, Django requires a lot of import statement to do a lot of work, which remembering is not so easy and even after that you may need to write a lot of code. But Ruby on Rails uses gem to add addition feature or dependency in the project. Which requires just copying the gem statement from github and pasting it in the Gemfile, then running bundle install(these days just bundle works super fine). And there you are with the new feature in your app. You can see this with the example of Authentication, where in Django you require several steps like adding class based views and many more, but in rails it's just as easy as installing the 'devise' gem . And if you want to make it beautiful use bootstrap_template gem to make it look prettier. Now with Rails 6 , Rails is a total developer's fervent friend because it has come up with features like Action Mail and Action Text.

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washie mugo
Chose
DjangoDjango
over
LaravelLaravel

i find python quite resourceful. given the bulk of libraries that python has and the trends of the tech i find django which runs on python to be the framework of choice to the upcoming web services and application. Laravel on the other hand which is powered by PHP is also quite resourceful and great for startups and common web applications.

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Since I came from python I had two choices: #django or #flask. It felt like it was a better idea to go for #django considering I was building a blogging platform, this is kind of what #django was made for. On the other hand, #rails seems to be a fantastic framework to get things done. Although I do not regret any of my time spent on developing with #django I want to give #rails a try some day in the future for the sake of curiosity.

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Pros of CodeIgniter
Pros of Django
  • 88
    Mvc
  • 76
    Easy setup
  • 70
    Open source
  • 62
    Well documented
  • 36
    Community support
  • 25
    Easy to learn
  • 21
    Easy
  • 14
    Fast
  • 11
    HMVC
  • 9
    "Fast","Easy","MVC"
  • 9
    Language Suppert
  • 7
    Powerful
  • 6
    I think it is best. we can make all types of project
  • 6
    Easy, fast and full functional
  • 6
    Open source, Easy to setup
  • 5
    Customizable
  • 5
    Beginner friendly framework
  • 4
    Super Lightweight, Super Easy to Learn
  • 3
    CLI
  • 2
    Easily Extensible
  • 1
    Powerful
  • 673
    Rapid development
  • 488
    Open source
  • 425
    Great community
  • 379
    Easy to learn
  • 277
    Mvc
  • 232
    Beautiful code
  • 223
    Elegant
  • 207
    Free
  • 203
    Great packages
  • 194
    Great libraries
  • 80
    Comes with auth and crud admin panel
  • 79
    Restful
  • 78
    Powerful
  • 76
    Great documentation
  • 72
    Great for web
  • 57
    Python
  • 43
    Great orm
  • 41
    Great for api
  • 32
    All included
  • 29
    Fast
  • 25
    Web Apps
  • 23
    Clean
  • 23
    Easy setup
  • 21
    Used by top startups
  • 19
    Sexy
  • 19
    ORM
  • 15
    The Django community
  • 14
    Allows for very rapid development with great libraries
  • 14
    Convention over configuration
  • 11
    King of backend world
  • 10
    Full stack
  • 10
    Great MVC and templating engine
  • 8
    Mvt
  • 8
    Fast prototyping
  • 7
    Its elegant and practical
  • 7
    Easy to develop end to end AI Models
  • 7
    Batteries included
  • 6
    Cross-Platform
  • 6
    Very quick to get something up and running
  • 6
    Have not found anything that it can't do
  • 5
    Zero code burden to change databases
  • 5
    Great peformance
  • 5
    Python community
  • 5
    Easy Structure , useful inbuilt library
  • 4
    Easy to use
  • 4
    Map
  • 4
    Easy to change database manager
  • 4
    Full-Text Search
  • 4
    Just the right level of abstraction
  • 4
    Many libraries
  • 4
    Modular
  • 4
    Easy
  • 3
    Scaffold
  • 1
    Node js
  • 1
    Built in common security
  • 1
    Great default admin panel
  • 1
    Scalable
  • 1
    Gigante ta
  • 1
    Cons
  • 1
    Fastapi
  • 0
    Rails

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Cons of CodeIgniter
Cons of Django
  • 6
    No ORM
  • 1
    No CLI
  • 26
    Underpowered templating
  • 22
    Autoreload restarts whole server
  • 22
    Underpowered ORM
  • 15
    URL dispatcher ignores HTTP method
  • 10
    Internal subcomponents coupling
  • 8
    Not nodejs
  • 8
    Configuration hell
  • 7
    Admin
  • 5
    Not as clean and nice documentation like Laravel
  • 4
    Python
  • 3
    Not typed
  • 3
    Bloated admin panel included
  • 2
    Overwhelming folder structure
  • 2
    InEffective Multithreading
  • 1
    Not type safe

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What is CodeIgniter?

CodeIgniter is a proven, agile & open PHP web application framework with a small footprint. It is powering the next generation of web apps.

What is Django?

Django is a high-level Python Web framework that encourages rapid development and clean, pragmatic design.

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What are some alternatives to CodeIgniter and Django?
Laravel
It is a web application framework with expressive, elegant syntax. It attempts to take the pain out of development by easing common tasks used in the majority of web projects, such as authentication, routing, sessions, and caching.
WordPress
The core software is built by hundreds of community volunteers, and when you’re ready for more there are thousands of plugins and themes available to transform your site into almost anything you can imagine. Over 60 million people have chosen WordPress to power the place on the web they call “home” — we’d love you to join the family.
Yii
Yii comes with: MVC, DAO/ActiveRecord, I18N/L10N, caching, authentication and role-based access control, scaffolding, testing, etc. It can reduce your development time significantly.
Symfony
It is written with speed and flexibility in mind. It allows developers to build better and easy to maintain websites with PHP..
Kohana
Kohana is an elegant, open source, and object oriented HMVC framework built using PHP5, by a team of volunteers. It aims to be swift, secure, and small.
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